featherxquill | In Which Feather Quill Rants...

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In Which Feather Quill Rants...

I want to rant about MARY-SUES. Ergh, I hear you sigh. Not another person who found Fanfiction dot net and realised it was full of SHIT.

Well, actually, no.

This rant is in favour of Mary Sues. Well, kind of. I would like to know what Mary-Sues actually ARE. I know the 'dictionary' definition, but what that is and what it equates to in people's minds are two totally different things.

This is not something I have trouble with much anymore, since I haven't played (rp-d or fanficced) with my OFC much at all in the last six months, but it used to be something I came up against all the time. Hatred of OFCs, hatred of Mary-Sues. Being called Mary-Sue by people who hadn't even stopped to watch you play, but decided on it by simply glancing at your signature.

What exactly makes a female character a Mary-Sue? Commonly, it is the assumption that the writer/rp-er is making an idealised version of herself, that a MS is just too perfect to be real.

What bothers me is what makes a character be seen as a Mary-Sue. Any character who is seen to be both attractive AND intelligent is a Mary-Sue, any character who is more powerful than (than what? than Harry? than Dumbledore?) is seen as a Mary-Sue. And fandom hates them. Men hate them. Women hate them. Everyone seems to hate them.

What bothers me is the idea that a woman CANNOT be all of those things - beautiful, intelligent, sexy, powerful. The assumptions that these kind of women are to be bashed, flamed and put down - even in fanfiction - is distressing to me.

Thank God, women like this do exist. There are women in the world - in the workforce, in academia, wherever - that are all of these things. Flick through any glossy magazine. Catherine Zeta-Jones, Jennifer Lopez. Beautiful, sexy, rich, powerful, famous. Often cut down by reporters. If these women were written into fiction, would they be Mary-Sues?

I have heard people call Hermione Granger a Mary-Sue, just for being intelligent. The most horrible thing to do to Hermione, according to some readers, is to make her beautiful. Why is that? Is Hermione only allowed to be seen as a real woman while she is either intelligent OR sexy? Why can she not be both? When is she ever described in canon as being ugly? Admittedly, there are many writers out there who completely ignore canon and turn characters into horrible parodies of the ones we know and love, but why does a Hermione who decides that hey, maybe it would be nice to straighten my hair a bit immediately become a Hermione-sue? (Go and read Anna's Roman Holiday for a story where Hermione is both intelligent and sexy, and STILL a real, three dimensional, recognisable character.

And what about the male characters? People talk about 'Gary-Stu', but hardly as often as they talk about his female counterpart. Gary-Stuism usually happens to Snape, and usually involves some sort of makeover. But I'm not really sure that's what qualifies as a Gary-Stu, in terms of the 'projection' definition.

I have a friend who RPs Snape (or at least used to), and he refuses to believe that Snape could ever fall in love. Now, is something like that really canon at all? We know nothing at all about Snape in that capacity. All information we have about him is filtered through Harry, and through the channels of student/teacher relationships. We know NOTHING about Snape's desires for romance/relationships or lacktherof. Yes, this is going somewhere.

What interests me is that for a MALE RPer of Snape (and the other male Snape rpers that I know), the attraction seems to be to play a complete and utter bastard of a man who can tell people off as he pleases, or (in the case of the foremost Snape) take rp lovers that he will never care for or want for more than sex. Is this Snape 'canon'? Is snarky!bastard!hateful!Snape more canon than one who shows emotions in private? Is he more of a believable man than a woman who is intelligent, sexy and powerful? I don't really think so. I think the desire to play a Snape who is mean and nasty stems as much from perceived 'canon' Snape as it does from a desire to inhabit a factional character and act in a way that you would never be able to in RL, and hence exactly what women are criticised for when they create 'Mary-Sue' characters.

I don't think any of these characters are Mary-Sues. Obviously, I don't extend this to include those characters who have ten animagi forms, are part fairy and part Tolkien elf, are Snape's daughter and Dumbledore's granddaughter and both Harry and Draco's sister and going out with Ron, but I heartily dislike characterisation of all beautiful, intelligent, powerful female characters as Mary-Sues. Thanks to feminism and the battles fought in the past, women are able to be all of these things in the real world. Don't crucify them when they appear in the fictional one.

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..as if Snape would even go *near* James Potter in "that" way...I'm sure he'd rather shack with a piece of mummified roadkill.

No, Mary Sues ARE perfect. That's what I'm saying. The idealism behind them is that they have no flaws. So essentially, they do piss people off because they're not realistic characters. They're very much a fantasy of what a person would like to be - no flaws, no regrettable behaviour, etc.

I'm not criticising your post, I think you make some interesting points but from what I've experienced in the HP fandom; Mary Sues are really, really annoying. The people that write them up are generally young and insecure though so there's no point in having a go at them as they'll grow out of it.

As for the Gary Stu thing, it is bad when all a character wants to do in a roleplay (female OR male) is shag everything in site. That, to me, spoils everything.

Strong, beautiful women are fine. Nobody is disrespecting that. What they're saying is that they are written in a way that is demeaning. Like... why would Victoria Frobisher only live for having sex with Harry Potter? Not much of a life, is it?! Or to pine over Ron Weasley? Plus, psychologically, it doesn't work out either. Good looking people date other good looking people; that's the way it works. I know, I studied hard once ;)

LOL its ok I didn't think you were jumping down my throat. :)
There is a link to my fanfic masterlist in my userinfo. Lu began as an rp character (and th fanfic is a spin off of rp scenarios).

lucretiavamp is 'her' journal.

I suppose that is the line between Sue and not-Sue. Perfection. Young, inexperienced writers simply revel in their ability to create whoever they want to create, regardless of reality (I remember when I created my first RP character, I just sat there and decided i could be whoevere I wanted to be. The character was badly MS, but I realised that over time and edited her accordingly). Once a writer realises that her character has enormous flaws (and so-called 'perfection' is the biggest flaw of all), she is on her way to making the character realistic.

True. You make a very good point. I can't argue with that logic at all. At the same time as women have the right to be beautiful, intelligent and sexy, they also have the right to not be, and thank God for that. Thank God we have that choice.

Oh, God, I remember that too. Thank God mine never saw the light of day. I suppose that's one downside of the net - kids writing stuff that is terrible, puting it up on fanfic.net and getting hundred of reviews that say how wonderful it is. Stuff like that really doesn't help a writer want to change.

Yeah . . . the weirdest part was this flashback, where it turns out that this girl is genetically engineered (that's where her Dumbledore heritage comes from, how convenient) and James and Severus had sex to escape from Moony, or something weird like that. It's like "okay, so instead of just dragging him back down the tunnel, James, you're going to give the wolf an even stronger scent to follow. How smart."

And then of course Snape topped, but he was the one who got pregnant. EXPLAIN that to me.

I think the point here is - okay, let me put it this way so I won't sound like I'm bashing anyone.

Here is Harry. Harry's mother is a Muggleborn. Nobody knows his dad's heritage, but it's been hinted that he may be pureblood. Harry grew up in an unloving home pulling spiders off his socks because he lives in a cupboard. All of his clothes are so big they practically fall off him. In the meantime, he gets to watch his cousin be spoilt to the point where he's bad as a rotted egg. Now Harry gets to go away to this awesome school and have all these amazing adventures. He'll make friends, do homework, fight trolls, get in trouble, develop favorites and least favorites, get in trouble, learn a few valuable lessons, get in trouble, get seriously beaten up by a crazy teacher who's being possessed by Voldemort, get in trouble, and discover that he's really not like everyone else, even though that's really what he wanted to be.

Now - here is Mary-Sue Harry (created by me). Mary-Sue Harry had pureblood parents who got killed and now he lives with relatives who are terrified of his powers, so all he has to do is say "jump" and they say "How high on a silver platter, master?" MS Harry is part veela, part phoenix, and part unicorn (yes, I know I said his parents were purebloods, but then nobody said Mary-Sues always make sense). When he discovers his Gringotts vault, he's not thrilled that he has money of his own - he's disappointed because there's not more, and why didn't he ever stay with the Dursleys even though they're stupid because then he could have SO much better than this? Harry falls in with Draco Malfoy but somehow gets sorted to Gryffindor because, you know, it's the best house, of course. A quarrel with Malfoy results and he ends up being a snob who just kind of leads Ron and Hermione around by the nose (and gets away with it because, you know, he's HARRY POTTER THE BOY WHO LIVED). He gets top marks in all his classes without even trying because, you know, he's HARRY POTTER THE BOY WHO LIVED and if that weren't enough all the teachers simply love him and can't imagine a better student. He never has to do homework, because his professors will accept any excuse as to why he didn't do it. And when he finds the Philosopher's Stone, he escapes with nary a scratch because Quirrell is more afraid of him than he is of what Voldemort could do to him.

Now, which one would YOU want as a friend, family member, classmate, etc.? As I said before, the reason the characters (even the nastier ones like Snape and the Malfoys) are so endearing is because WE ALL KNOW SOMEONE WHO IS EXACTLY LIKE THEM. My best friend is a Hermione; I'm a cross between Luna and Ron; my old social studies teacher is like a cross between Dumbledore (wisdom) and Lupin (personality, age, and disability). The stories wouldn't be nearly so good if the characters weren't real, but along come the Fairy-Sues (the really, really bad ones who can do all and see all and be all) to wreck the world of fanfiction.

I HAVE A PROPOSITION: Let us call all smart, good looking, etc. OC's Mary Sues or Gary-Stus and have that be a badge of honor - look, they've created a great character who is fairly believable and whose psychology works.

Then, as a badge of shame for the stupid ones who know more than Dumbledore and can do all and see all and be all, we will christen them Fairy-Sues - too good to be trues.

And a suggestion to anyone on this board who is writing Fairy-Sues and doesn't know how to stop - think about the psychology of your character. I studied basic psychology for nearly a year in order to write my story "What There is in a Bottle of Ink" because I knew I'd have, most likely, hundreds of OCs by the time I was done, and I wanted them to be and see and feel and interact like REAL PEOPLE, not tin-foil dolls.

A woman doesn't have to be a supermodel to be beautiful. One of my best friends weighs more than 300 pounds, is 5 foot 1 inch (in other words, she's as big around as she is tall), and she's one of the most beautiful people I've ever seen because she is good from the inside out. It's like the ugly stepsisters from Cinderella (read the book): They were beautiful, but their hearts were so bad that they appeared ugly.

I think we have too much of a stereotyped view on "beauty" and until we throw those stereotypes away there will always be Mary Sues of the worst kind because girls think they've got to be the best. Look at the shows on television in the US today: nip it here, tuck it there. Lift it, suck it in, small waist and big bust is the way to go.

Look at Barbie. Every little girl wants to be like Barbie. I wonder how many of them would want to be like Barbie if they knew that Barbie's proportions are so bad she'd be about 7 foot 4 inches if she were lifesize and would be comatose because she'd weigh about 140 pounds (which is average weight for a 5'7" girl/woman). Even if by a miracle she weren't comatose, she would never be able to stand up because her proportions are so off she wouldn't be able to support herself. Yet she's considered the ultimate of glamour by little girls.

You see the problem here?

I've heard Sirius labelled as a Canon Sue because it was SO convenient that he never lost his powers, and I've heard some pretty nasty accusations leveled at Remus (along the lines of "No teacher is really THAT good without screwing the students or something" but *I* know that's BULLSHIT because I have a teacher named Kevin Wible, and I swear JKR met him and from him was born Remus Lupin), but you've got a point at that: The females are the ones who take most of the heat.

I think we should all go and point out the stupid, lazy guys who sexually harass us, foist their work off on us and then take the credit, abuse us, and so on, and people could cry "MINORITY!" all they liked as long as we could prove that smart, intelligent women, all beautiful in their own way, are the MAJORITY in our sex.

Agreed. That's why I always offer constructive criticism - I actually had one girl who refused to use a beta, but when I kept telling her that her plotlines were good but could be fantastic if she'd find someone to help her polish them, she told me she was looking for a beta. Her next piece was better by a thousand percent, and I told her so (that I was thrilled by how she'd improved her technique). And do you know when I did, she THANKED me for not letting her off the hook.

Sadly, many of those reviews come from other little kids who think it really is the best, and so we're creating a generation of kids who don't know what they're doing.

Hey everyone:

For a long time I've wanted to write a top X-number list of the rules of good HP fanfiction writing, and this thing has made me want to do it even more. Anybody have any suggestions for the list? (I'm looking for things along the lines of "Make sure your canon characters match the book. Remus doesn't lie - he will always tell at least half a truth. Don't make him lie for no apparent reason.")

I dunno, I always thought of Harry as a canon-Stu....I mean, he has lived all his life with nasty relatives, mistreated, yet he still stays sweet and nice and good. He's brave, he's nice, he's loyal, everybody likes him except those nasty Slytherins and Snape which is how we know they're bad, because they dislike the hero. When his friends get in a fight, he always stays perfectly neutral and doesn't take sides. He always saves the day, never gets in trouble (or at least wiggles out of it), and the headmaster is pretty damn biased toward him. He may go into a teenage angst moment sometimes, but it's always justified--his parents were murdered, his godfather is dead, something equally dramatic. You never see him freak out because he got a zit or can't find his left sock. All of his flaws are minor--the moments of angst which, as I said are justifiable; the Mirror of Erised, which is a mistake anyone could make, esp. at age 11.

Yep, he's pretty damn perfect.

I took issue with that comment too because I think people can't stand for her not to be beautiful because they can't stand to think of a positive character that isn't physically attractive. I mean, when is the last time you saw a movie or TV show heroine that one could call positively homely? Even Emma Watson isn't unattractive--I was rather disappointed upon seeing the movies because I didn't think Hermione would look that good.

So these people, who can't bear to see someone in a positive role who isn't a beauty queen, make Hermione suddenly a well-groomed show pony, a la the traditional teen movie plot of "ugly duckling loses the glasses, cuts her hair, and suddenly becomes a swan." There is nothing in canon to really indicate that this has happened to Hermione--by the end of the fifth book she is fifteen and ought to be blossoming by now, but we haven't seen any big surge of boys suddenly flocking to her side or running into walls as she goes past because they're staring.

When in reality...I know a lot of intelligent women, but most of them would ever win a beauty contest. It's their brains that makes them attractive once you know them, but Miss America they will never be, no matter what they do. Meanwhile, a lot of the women I know who are "pretty" and take a lot of time to maintain that, who aren't necessarily the brightest crayons in the box. I don't know why this is. I don't know if beautiful women see they can get by on their looks and don't need their brains, so they concentrate on doing their hair and makeup and come across as vapid while the unattractive women realize their minds and personalities are all they have so they'd better cultivate them, or if the women who are naturally dumb go all out on their looks to compensate, or what.

So I don't see what the problem is with keeping Hermione the way she is actually written rather than projecting our own ideas of how a heroine should be on her, and keeping her more true to how it usually is in real life. And that's why I would never make Hermione beautiful and would take a second look at anyone who did.

Hello, got here from the Daily Snitch. :)

I agree with your basic principle here - I don't think a character has to be a Mary Sue just becaise she is intelligent and beutiful.

No, what really defines a Mary Sue is her tendency to warp the canon characters so badly they're hardly recognisable as themselves anymore. And this is of course related to bad writing.

A Mary Sue is never only beautiful and intelligent. She also must have very special powers, the like of which no one has seen before, or that's only been heard of in legends, and a very tragic and mysterious past. (For some reason she apparently often also needs to have colour-changing eyes.) It's the sheer amount of traits that makes one suspicious. And, of course, that she really doesn't have any real flaws; the only "flaws" she might have only make people like her more and are described as cute or charming.

I do think you are right in that many people shout Mary-Sue just because there is an original character in a story. What annoys me is when a writer makes a Mary Sue out of a canon character. It's harder to spot, and a lot more frustrating, since you're expecting, say, Harry, and instead get an OC in disguise.

About Snape: I think he might possibly be able to fall in love, but since (as you say) we've never seen him in that sort of situation it's very hard to write convincingly. But I've seen it done very nicely several times. :)

"And then of course Snape topped, but he was the one who got pregnant."

Yeah, that is something I havnt worked out yet - why is it that he's the one who always 'gets it'. Tension of contrasts, maybe? ;p

Hm, I don't really agree with you on Harry.

I mean, he has lived all his life with nasty relatives, mistreated, yet he still stays sweet and nice and good.

I'm sorry, but... what? He's really rather nasty to people he dislikes. In PS he laughs at Dudley being scared of the snake at the zoo. He constantly verbally puts the Dursleys down with sarcastic remarks. In OotP he taunts Dudley mercilessly, just because he's feeling frustrated!

He hardly trusts anyone, and isn't very popular - he doesn't have any close friends (although I think that's starting to change), save for Ron and Hermione. And he never opens up even to them.

He's brave, he's nice, he's loyal, everybody likes him except those nasty Slytherins and Snape which is how we know they're bad, because they dislike the hero.

he is brave, but I always wonder if it isn't because he's always fighting for the only thing he's got to lose; his life in the wizarding world.

He's not exactly nice though; he and Ron spent an awful long time not speaking to hermione because she told a teacher about the broomstick Harry got. He then spends a long time not speaking to Ron because og that whole triwizard thing. He spends a lot of time screaming at them in OotP (although some of it they deserved).

Of course he dislikes the Slytherins. To him, they're represented by Draco, and they've been having a very angry argument for five years now. (And that was started by more or less aseries of mistakes, but I won't get into that now, heh.)

And how could he ever had liked Snape? The man attacked him almost the moment he came into the classrom. But correct me if I'm wrong; isn't Snape the very example of a character who is against Voldemort and still not very nice? Harry was extremely wrong about him in PS; he was constantly saving Harry, and Harry was convinced that Snape was the one about to steal the stone.

When his friends get in a fight, he always stays perfectly neutral and doesn't take sides.

Dude, he and one Weasley twin both jumped Draco in OotP. He's completely on Neville's side when Draco steals his remembrall, and is the one wo tries to take it back. Sorry, but I can't remember more instances where his friends were in fights. Which ones were you thinking of?

He always saves the day, never gets in trouble (or at least wiggles out of it), and the headmaster is pretty damn biased toward him.

Oh, certainly Dumbledore is biased. He loves Harry, and it's human. *shrugs*
But Harry gets in trouble a lot. He's served many detentions, and lost his house a staggering amount of points (something that once made the entire Gryffidor House stop speaking to him) and made mistakes that has had dire concequences. When he carelessly goes to Hogsmeade in PoA, he feels great remorse when he's asked what he does with what his parents sacrificed for him.

He may go into a teenage angst moment sometimes, but it's always justified--his parents were murdered, his godfather is dead, something equally dramatic.

Not many fans I've talked to seems to thinks that he's justified. To an extent I do, however. In OotP he's not treated very well, and I would have been as angry had I been in his shoes.

You never see him freak out because he got a zit or can't find his left sock.

Well, he's not really the type, now is he? I've never been to upset about those things either. Also, he doesn't seem to have zits, heh.

He worries about his schoolwork every now and then though.

Anyway, I found him refreshingly different from all the cliched hero stereotypes I could think of when I started reading the books, that's why I love him so much.

Actually, I think what Ms. Rowling said was that the idea of Professor Snape in love was awful, not the idea of someone else being in love with him. And really, it is kind of an awful thought given the character, just try to imagine this sarcastic and unpleasant grump being all doe-eyed over someone... without a serious personality change, it just comes out disturbing and stalkerish, not a pretty picture.

As for Mary-Sues, this is the first I have heard of them, so I have no real comment except that I like to see original characters in fanfic. The only important thing to me is that they be well-written, realistic characters.

Actually, that was one of the first things that came to my mind when I first played with the idea of doing a romance fic about him (which I havnt yet) - I can imagine him as being absoloutly the stalkerish "you-are-mine-and-no-one-else-will-have-you" type. Thinking up a realistic SS/oFC romace scenario - if he ever did fall in love, I can only envisage him having anything resembling a "good" relationship with someone who (a) is very powerful - in witch/wizarding terms I'm talking about almost a female Dumbledore here (assuming the OC pairing is het), someone who absolutely does not have to take any guff from him. (b) has a number of shared interests, traits & qualities that he would both find attractive & would command his respect. There is a lot of evidence that he respects & looks up to DD so he could be made to do the same for a suitable female character - though he'd find such a person very threatening at first. & finally, (c) - she would have to have ennough reason herself to want to persevere with someone like him. She'd also have to know when to give him a longer tether & when to put her foot down - and be prepared to do that all the time. Real taming of the shrew material ...

I think vampires have been mentioned in JKR canon, if I remember correctly it was in Oop when Hagrid & Olympia were going abroad to talk to the giants (& were waylaid by a vampire).

No idea. It seems to me that Remus gets preggers a lot, too, though, and that one I can see. I mean, he's obsessed with chocolate, he hates to see people unhappy, he's got these uncannily "sixth-sense" modes of emoting (WHY did he hug Sirius in the Shrieking Shack when there was no real proof of his innocence yet?), and he turns into a real bitch once a month.

You can't tell me those are male habits.

lol - point taken. but it'd be one hell of a rough ride for the ... um .. offspring with the change. Actually (slightly off the subject) I've sometimes toyed with the idea of putting Remus into a SF/crossover setting. It'd mean that he could avoid suffering lycantrhopy so long as he only went to worlds that didnt have a moon. But then ... what if he had to go to one? And can simply seeing a moon from a spacecraft bring on an attack? the mind boggles.

I don't know what SF is, but you have some good points there.

SF = Science Fiction ^-^

Ahh, okay ^_^

Personally I like keeping my sci-fi and magi-fi separate, but that's just me.

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